Discussions: Beatles Salsa CD ... sacrilegious ?

A discussion from the newsgroup rec.music.afro-latin.

I'm very interested in other people's opinions about the 'Tropical Tribute To The Beatles' by RMM. Well, it's not really new that CD, but there have been controverse discussions about it in the last months here in Germany.

I would like to know if it is the same in other countries.

Here's a short summary of what I've experienced here: The local DJs played some songs of it quite often (especially 'Let It Be'), but most of the dancers said something like 'My god, how can they do that to the Beatle's songs???'. It was quite interesting to see that despite of this most of them (including me) couldn't stand still while listening to it - the rhythm of those songs is just too good for that. But some forced themselves not to dance, because it was 'that Beatles stuff'.

My opinion was about the same at first. I guess it's just difficult to accept different versions of songs which are extremely familiar to you. But then I wondered why I didn't like this, but just love the big variety of interpretations on old songs like 'Nigh And Day'?

Somehow with time I began to accept it more and more - by now I love some of the songs! But most of my friends just can't understand that change of mind... the majority still doesn't like the CD - que pena!

So how about you? Feel free to post your opinion. I suppose Steve Roitstein (remark: Steve was arranger and musical director of the CD and participates in rec.music.afro-latin) will be able to get over negative opinions (won't you?).

Klaus

(klaus@salsaholic.de, 1. Oct. 96)

I hear 'ya Klaus.

I am a DJ for at a college station in upstate New York. When we first got the CD, my mind was blown in the worst way. However, being involved with the salsa music scene for nearly twenty-years, this is a phase in the industry that I have come to accept.

Once, RMM went mainstream with its ties to SONY corporation, etc., a release like the Tropical Tribute was inevitable. I don't like it. Everybody I know doesn'tlike it. Local listeners don't even request it.

For me the release of this CD marks the coming of a downward swing for the Latin music industry. Just like in the early '80s. Salsa had reached its peak, and then became the property of blood-sucking capitalist, milking  the musical form for its last fews dollar. SALSA LOVERS UNITE!!! LATINOS/AS UNITE!!! Take back the music. Don't let it die in the arms of a metal beast. RMM has a web-site. Let them know what you think about this sacriligious abberation. QUE VIVA LA MUSICA LATINA!

Mamboso Nuyotopia

(bb09629@binghamton.edu, 1. Oct. 96)

> For me the release of this CD marks the coming of a downward swing for the
> Latin music industry. Just like in the early '80s. Salsa had reached its
> peak, and then became the property of blood-sucking capitalist, milking
> the musical form for its last fews dollar. SALSA LOVERS UNITE!!!
> LATINOS/AS UNITE!!! Take back the music. Don't let it die in the arms of a
> metal beast. RMM has a web-site. Let them know what you think about this
> sacriligious abberation. QUE VIVA LA MUSICA LATINA!

> Mamboso Nuyotopia

Yet another example of the "Capitalists are taking over and screwing a good thing just for money" syndrome.

Grow up, please.

(leobueno@bridge.net (Leo Bueno), 5. Oct. 96)

I for one do not understand what the hoopla is all about. For starters the very first song ever recorded by the "fab four" was "Besame Mucho", which happens to be a Latin tune (Bolero). Now this tune was not a hit for them, but never the less it was their attempt to perform a Latin tune by their own admission. Now those of you that understand or can pick out the clave will also discover that it is present throughout a few of their early tunes, especially the slower tempo tunes. So "go tell it on the mountain" the Beatles were way ahead of their time, and it seems that they still are ahead of the times when it comes to some people. BTW don't they remember that famous Beatle poster that featured Ringo on conga, George on bongo, John on claves, and Paul on maracas and vocals ;-)? Didn't you like it when John would shout "Caminalo!" just before the mambo section? Steve, what's your take? Anda, caminalo, alambrito dulce!!!

--

Musically,
George Rivera
goje@earthlink.net

(goje@earthlink.net, 2. Oct. 96)

George, I'm trying to lay low on this one so as not to give the impression that I'm intimidating anyone's posting of any negative opinions. I honestly want to hear people's feelings about the CD, both negative and positive. It would help the discussion, though, if the opinions were explained a bit and were not just "I think it's nifty" or "I don't like it and neither do any of my pals".

I will post some of my feelings on the subject after some others have had their say. So, come on. Let 'em rip, good or bad. Just explain yourself, please.

Steve Roitstein
Riot Music, Miami
riot@bridge.net

(riot@bridge.net, 3. Oct. 96)

George:

Great observations. Please identify the CDs and the tunes so we can go and give a listen.

(leobueno@bridge.net (Leo Bueno), 5. Oct. 96)

The album in question is neither the first or last to re-record tunes from the beatles. However, with the quality of musicians that participated, and the great outcome, it may just be the best.

Gonzalo Arjona

(gonzalomex@aol.com, 3. Oct. 96)

That is a sucessful combination in my opinion.

Antonio

(rvillaro@liszt.helios.nd.edu, 3. Oct. 96)

When I first heard of this I was very skeptical, well, to the point of "not liking it" even without listening to it. That was a very narrow-minded attitude. I know there are some who believe that English has no place in this music. They are entitled to their opinion, just as some of us are entitled to have the opposite one. These are my conclusions:

1. This is not the first experimentation of having English songs played in Salsa.

2. The Beatles were not (and are not) gods. Why should their stuff be treated any different than, say, Gershwin?

3. Experimentation in ANY field is healthy. Censorship is deadly.

4. "The proof is in the groove." If it sounds good to you, then go ahead and like it and don't apologize for it. To me (personally) most of the material sounds quite good. To my surprise, it swings.

5. There is a market for this type of music. If the market doesn't support this type of product, it will dissapear by itself. WE dictate (with buying patterns) what's hot and what isn't. If some of us like it... live with it!

I also think that characterizing Ralph Mercado (personally), or anyone else, as a "blood sucking monster" is unfair--unless you know him personally. Let's agree to disagree... and respect other people's tastes.

Saludos,

Wallice

(wallice13@aol.com, 3. Oct. 96)

wallice13@aol.com (Wallice 13) wrote:

> 4. "The proof is in the groove." If it sounds good to you, then go ahead
> and like it and don't apologize for it. To me (personally) most of the
> material sounds quite good. To my surprise, it swings.

THIS IS THE BOTTOM LINE!! It swings, it sounds good and it is in clave. The rest of the discussion is about pesonal preference which does not dictate whether something is sacrilegious or not.

> 5. There is a market for this type of music. If the market doesn't support
> this type of product, it will dissapear by itself. WE dictate (with buying
> patterns) what's hot and what isn't. If some of us like it... live with
> it!
> I also think that characterizing Ralph Mercado (personally), or anyone
> else, as a "blood sucking monster" is unfair--unless you know him
> personally. Let's agree to disagree... and respect other people's tastes.

Couldn't agree more.

Antonio

(rvillaro@liszt.helios.nd.edu, 3. Oct. 96)

> 3. Experimentation in ANY field is healthy. Censorship is deadly.
> 4. "The proof is in the groove." If it sounds good to you, then go ahead
> and like it and don't apologize for it. To me (personally) most of the
> material sounds quite good. To my surprise, it swings.
> 5. There is a market for this type of music. If the market doesn't support
> this type of product, it will dissapear by itself. WE dictate (with buying
>patterns) what's hot and what isn't. If some of us like it... live with it!

Just curious, Wallice and not flaming in any way, but why not apply these same conclusions to your views on Macarena? and if not , why?

Bob in Gainesville

(bobl@library.health.ufl.edu, 10. Oct. 96)

A salsa tribute to the Beatles?! When I first heard this, I grimaced. After listening to Ralph Mercado's argument (i.e. the Beatles had Latin influences and that these could be seen in their music), however, made me more comfortable with the idea. After all, I remembered an interview where Paul McCartney had mentioned that while searching for their early sound, their best guess had been to mix the rock of the time with some Latin influences. "Besame Mucho" and "And I Love Her" are real clear examples of this attempt at a new sound. As a matter of fact, most of the early Beatles stuff shows remnants of this idea.

Unfortunately, that's about as far as I can go with that argument, and while I don't mean to suggest that the Beatles just suddenly forgot one of their influences, starting with the Revolver album (the usual roadmark), their music took on a whole different set of influences, e.g. sitar and classical Indian music. If the purpose of the album was to highlight the Latin influences already inherent in the Beatles music, then this is an awful stretch on a tune like "Let It Be," in which the original version was based on block piano chords with a rock style release (and let's not forget the afro roots of rock too...).

Now, don't get me wrong. I think it completely legitimate to cut a cover tune, provided that the artist feels that the new cut is able to add something to the original intent. Of course, all these tunes are bound to swing if placed in the usual salsa formula. Steve knows what he's doing, and does it well. Heck, the montunos are new pieces of music composed just to fit those arrangements. But, in my humble opinion, that is not the issue. the question is: is the music better off for being placed in an afro-latin context? In some cases, as with Day Tripper, it is. (BTW, Day Tripper has been Latinized before, check out Marty Sheller's arrangement for Mongo Santamaria on "Soca Me Nice.) And I think it works best on some of the early tunes like "Can't Buy Me Love." I also think it works on the tunes where some of the salsa feel was sacrificed by pushing the rhythm to the back and softening up the horns ("Yesterday","Fool on the Hill"), even if I still prefer the original versions of these tunes. But I really think that the merengue version of "I Want to Hold Your Hand" & the 6/8 on "A Little Help from my Friends" sounds like "well, we have too many salsa arrangements on this album, better find a new rhythm to mix it up." Also, I feel that in a lot of places some of the artists didn't take enough liberty with the melody lines to fit them into clave, so while the rest of the arrangement is swinging, the singer gets held back because they are holding on to the original melody line (more true of the songs in English) only to be released when they get to the montuno section. In the end, I find the album a mixed effort, and I'd have to give it a thumbs down if asked to buy it (I borrowed from a friend).

Of course, all this is very heady, so if all you want to do is dance....

With all respect to Steve,

J. Eduardo

(wolf@toto.cse.nd.edu (Ed Wolf), 4. Oct. 96)

Wallice 13 wrote (during another discussion):

> Hey Steve, how's that "Best of Elvis... Salsa Style" production coming
> along? I can't wait to hear that version of "Falling in Love With You" on
> bomba beat.
> Saludos,
> Wallice
> (just rattling some cages)
> :-) :-) :-)

I would prefer Chuck Berry doing Richie Ray's "Jala Jala". Now that would be something!;-)

--

Musically,
George Rivera
goje@earthlink.net

(riot@bridge.net, 4. Oct. 96)

I don't know what's the problem with this CD. In my opinion it's the ONLY way you can hear beatles without a headache after. But perhaps this is exactly the reason why people don't like it: They don't like it, because it's beatles stuff ! To use the word "sacrileg" is a bit hard, but not untrue, because it's an abuse of REAL music, like Salsa, performing such popsh*t like beatles' songs. Unfortunately it's the way things work in the music business in this times. Just get a song that once used to be a hit and cover it to earn some easy money. In case of the "Tribute to the Beatles" it was in fact an improvement, but, especially here in Germany (though I don't know exactly how the "music scene" works in other countries), some "musicians" (the kids that think mixing a "BOOM-BOOM" with some sound-samples means music) take REALLY GOOD songs like e.g. Oye Como Va and spoil them underlying it with an ugly Rhythm (the kind of rhythm which techno-kids like). Really annoying...

I think it's time for brining down the Mainstream Music-Cons like SONY and teach kids more sense for music ! Kill MTV ! But in spite of my opinions above, the Tribute is, looking at the music itself, a good piece of Melodious Dancable Salsa, in contrast to some CDs of Tito Puente e.g.

Greetinx
Markus

--

(markus@gummibaer.rhein-main.de (Markus Becker), 5. Oct. 96)

1) I don't blame RMM for it's desire to make money with this album. It might even help promote salsa amongst broader non-latino audiences.

2) When I listen or dance to salsa, I want to feel entirely "latin". I want to dive into some sort of daydream that I am over there, and these Beatles tunes are harming my religious experience!

3) To cover the Beatles IS different than to cover other groups. They might be overrated, but yes subconsciently I feel bothered when someone stains those relics of my vanished youth.

4) I think, in most cases it's boring to cover *** TOO *** famous songs. If I was a musician, I'd have the ambition to discover cool yet not so well known songs, develop them further and make them famous. (examples: Bob Marley's "Caution" and "Soul Captives")

Gregor

--

From: GREGOR ARNOLD STOELTING
e-mail: stoelting@math.fu-berlin.de

(stoelting@math.fu-berlin.de, 6. Ovt. 96)

It would be one thing if the songs on that CD totally swung, but they don't. If the song doesn't groove, I don't care what it is, I don't want to hear it - and I definitely don't want to dance to it.

(timbalera3@aol.com, 6. Oct. 96)

stolting@math.fu-berlin.de (Gregor Stoelting) writes:

> 4) I think, in most cases it's boring to cover
> *** TOO *** famous songs. If I was a musician,
> I'd have the ambition to discover cool yet
> not so well known songs, develop them further
> and make them famous.

You have a great point here. My band in Dallas does just that. For example, have you heard these songs?

1. Manantial de Corazones (Yordano)
2. Puro deseo de amar (Adrenalina Caribe)
3. La prisa loca (Roy Brown)
4. Dejala Bailar (Soledad Bravo)

I think that if you cover fresh, hot, current material, you will undoubtly be judged against the original, note for note, word by word. I prefer not to try to sound like the original band, but instead have our own identity. I usually do a fresh arrangement and, as you say, make them famous... at least in my block.

Saludos,

Wallice

(wallice13@aol.com, 7. Oct. 96)

I was skeptical about buying this cd. I asked friends, read reviews (descarga Newsletter), etc. I admit that at first, I did not like it. Now I play it amost every day. I think that it is perhaps one of the best cd this year.

It does take a bit to get use to ... I like most track but prefer Guainko(sp?), Canario, tito, tony, and the last track, all artists.

I normally don't like salsa in "ingles", but this cd and tito nieves have make me take notice. Again, great cd. RMM congratulations!

(i001955 (felix valentin), 8. Oct. 96)

Klaus et al,

As the arranger and musical director of this CD, I can give you a bit of insight.

I had mixed feelings when I was presented with the idea by it's originator, producer Oscar Gomez. I never considered it sacrelige, because it's just music. I knew there both would be fans and detractors, as with most music releases.

I wasn't sure how many of the Beatles tunes could be well adapted to latin rhythms. I was also apprehensive about some of the Spanish lyrics, many of which are 30 year old translations that seem to have been designed to sound as much like the original as possible without necessarily retaining the original's meaning. For example, "Can't buy me love" is a lot different than "No Puedes Comprarme". The meaning changes completely, and this is not what I consider a good lyric translation.

We had many discussions about which songs to include. Some tunes that I wanted were left out ("Something", etc.) and others were kept ("Obladi Oblada").

All of that being said, I felt going in that the project had immense possibilities. As it turns out, it was a mixed bag, IMHO. As usually happens, some arrangements and vocal performances just turn out better than others, for a variety of reasons. I did not participate in the the lead vocal sessions, (except for an extremely hurried session with Oscar D'Leon, who had never even rehearsed his tune) as vocal production was the main contribution of Oscar Gomez.

While most songs sound great, I felt that a few of the vocal performances could have been much better. There are also instances where the singer could have been guided to adjust the rhythmic accents of the melodies to be more in clave.

As far as arrangement styles, it was mentioned by someone that the merengue ("I Want To Hold Your Hand") and the treatment of "With A Little Help From My Friends" were thrown in for variation's sake. Actually, the merengue was included per O.G.'s suggestion, as singer Manny Manuel is mainly known for this style, and Oscar thought it was a good fit. I created the 6/8 version of "With A Little Help From My Friends" to stay true to the "swing" feel of the original melody, and because I liked it.

For me, there were 3 songs where I felt that the vocal performance, lyrics, and arrangement all came together: "Let It Be", "Can't Buy Me Love", and "Yesterday". These were the highlights for me.

As a whole, I felt that the Tropical Tribute To The Beatles CD was a success, and I'm very proud of it. The negative comments I made here were intended as a little behind-the-scenes peek at one guy's incessant perfectionism. The CD has sold well, and actually has opened up many doors for me. It was an honor to work with such great artists and people like Ralph Mercado and his wonderful staff.

The CD also exposed a new audience to latin music, as I discovered in fan letters from places as diverse as Chicago, Omaha, and Moscow (Russia!). This in itself was worth all of the effort.

Stay tuned for "All You Need Is Clave" - Vol. 2 (Just kidding - I think!)

Steve Roitstein
Riot Music, Miami
riot@bridge.net

(riot@bridge.net, 17. Oct. 96)

Steve Roitstein <riot@bridge.net> writes:

> Stay tuned for "All You Need Is Clave" - Vol. 2 (Just kidding - I think!)

Does that mean that The Best of Elvis in salsa and the Roy Clark Merengue Banjo Mania are off?

Broken-hearted,

Wallice

(wallice13@aol.com, 18. Oct. 96)

Wallice 13 wrote:

> Hey Steve, how's that "Best of Elvis... Salsa Style" production coming
> along? I can't wait to hear that version of "Falling in Love With You" on
> bomba beat.
> Saludos,
> Wallice
> (just rattling some cages)
> :-) :-) :-)

Actually, in total seriousness, you may not be far off from the truth. Don't ask because I can't and won't say anymore.

Steve Roitstein
Riot Music, Miami
riot@bridge.net

(riot@bridge.net, 19. Oct. 96)

Personally, I really like the CD. Those who have listened to my copy say the same.

Papo

Salsaman@gte.net

(Salsaman@gte.net, 20. Oct. 96)

I´m very sorry to come late to this discussion. I´m a musician and i´m 44 so i was involved in the beginnig of this wonderfull group The Beatles but I´m also a latin american from Costa Rica, I love their music.

There are a couple of Ideas I want to expose.

Fisrt of all lest take for example Johann Sebastian Bach.I´ve heard so many variations of his music, name it and it has been done. The case of the Beatles like Bach now belongs not to england, or Germany nor to Rock or Baroque but to humanity and all the music, now they are clasics, and what can you make to Tribute those clasics, what you can give them is what you have and what you can do best, in the case of us (latin people) what we have and our tribute not only to the beatles but to the world itself and humanity is our music, I know that it´s imposible for everyone to have the same likings. there are socio'cultural elements that makes liking and disliking of certain things but sacrilegious???

Guillermo

(psanchez@cariari.ucr.ac.cr, 4. Nov. 96)

Copyright (only layout) Klaus Reiter (klaus@salsaholic.de). Last updated: 27. March 97.